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 Is it Love?

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Goth~Ink
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PostSubject: Is it Love?   Wed May 13, 2009 7:55 pm

Man, I am just about over science and psychology...there was one small sentence I read this week which has pretty much destroyed the basis of my current belief system and left me wondering wtf...??!!

That sentence? "Love has been proven not to be universal". In other words, anthropologists and biopsychologists have studied different cultures around the world and discovered that some do not show love, record the experience of love, have words that describe love or engage in any loving behaviour. This includes unconditional love as well as romantic love, companionate love, and all other forms of love.

I know it is dumb getting so strung out over a sentence in a text book...but what if I can look around and actually see the love dying in a culture I belong to that DOES purport to believe and engage in love?

I don't know where I go from here.... sad

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Night Star
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PostSubject: Re: Is it Love?   Thu May 14, 2009 2:39 am

Don't worry dear girl, there will always be love in the world. Which cultures were they referring to anyway? Most human beings show love in one way or another.
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GemLover
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PostSubject: Re: Is it Love?   Thu May 14, 2009 9:33 am

Yes, I would like to know what cultures they are referring to as well. To love is to be human, how can people of any culture not know what love is? Maybe in some cultures it's not "done" to openly express emotions or affection, but that is merely a cultural convention - not the truth of their hearts.
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TheGreatWhiteBuffalo
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PostSubject: Re: Is it Love?   Thu May 14, 2009 10:30 am

Love has so many levels,

My father had this thing about there is no black or white life is all shades of gray. So here I am fully aware of the lack of love in my own life and from my own family.

That culture you speak of is called the Western culture the dream to be shared all around the rest of the world, the twisted lie of American Ideals and that is why I choose to know find and always pursue the elusive butterfly of love. I thought that my wife and I could build our relationship into that loving dynamic, but she chose to seek out the worst in me and finding flaws in everything that I did, when I was simply having fun things would get twisted into some negative event that proved how sick I am instead of enjoying the moment everyone had to pull out daggers and stab me in the back, I had proven not to be perfect in an world that exists for only perfect people all of us dysfunctional creatures that would seek to let our hair down once in a while should be euthanized. Having a little fun should be outlawed in their world liars tell the truth and a lot of people should be killed. It just isn't right.
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GemLover
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PostSubject: Re: Is it Love?   Thu May 14, 2009 3:06 pm

Love, and the capacity to love, is available to all... therefore it is universal. Some people just choose not to share in it. Goth... another thing... read your signature! <3
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Blue Water
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PostSubject: Re: Is it Love?   Fri May 15, 2009 5:49 am

It's not dumb at all, I would feel the same. Far as I know all cultures show love. Name me a culture where women do not care for their children, where the sick are not looked after, or where relatives are not honoured.
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Night Star
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PostSubject: Re: Is it Love?   Fri May 15, 2009 4:04 pm

Oh wow Gary, I alway said that life is neither black nor white, but many shades of grey.
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Solane Star
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PostSubject: Re: Is it Love?   Fri May 15, 2009 9:29 pm

I LOVE PEANUT BUTTER !! !!
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Sammydacat
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PostSubject: Re: Is it Love?   Sat May 16, 2009 1:58 pm

I LOVE PEANUT BUTTER ALSO!! :D

I always wondered what measuring stick is used when talking about Love. Who holds the weights, measures, definition, and process of proof that allow us to make many of the assumptions I hear about love. I have my own view of what love is, but ask anyone else and there should be a difference right? Or is there a “Socially” correct definition that we all must use? Can any human truly gauge the amount of love there is within another being and if it spans the universe? I am sure many people came up with tests to measure it within one being, one society, within the universe. But are these correct tests. Makes you wonder when you here things like “there is no love left in the world” or “Love has been proven not to be universal”. Weird if you ask me. I believe that each being has a great capacity for both love and hate and neither love nor hate can truly be destroyed within a being. Perhaps the the statement that you read Goth Ink could be expanded on to tell us just how we should measure love. If I were you I would not be frustrated with such statements unless they can prove without any doubt that there are societies or cultures that do not love.

And perhaps Goth (weird calling you that) you are the one to prove the statement wrong.
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Goth~Ink
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PostSubject: Re: Is it Love?   Sun May 17, 2009 9:18 am

mm peanut butter.....and honey.... drool

Lol, Sammy It is ok - you can still call me Raven if you wish...lol.

The statement I came up with was from a Social Psychology text book talking about cross-cultural studies and how it is difficult to measure because there is no universal empirical (scientifically-based) explanation or definition of love. This causes a big spanner in the works because how do you measure something you cannot define?

To quote from the book:

Though many songwriters have attempted to answer the elusive 'What is love?', social psychologists tend to stick more to descriptions of behavioural and cognitive tendencies that are indicative of the state of being 'in love'...However we speak of 'falling' in love as though it is some sort of accident, something that happens to us rather than a process in which we actively participate...One of the most widely accepted claims about love among social psychologists is that a prerequisite for falling in love is to have been raised in a culture that believes in the concept and teaches it to young people, both in fiction and real-life depictions. If it really was an accident that happened to us, we would expect people from all cultures to fall in love, but this is not the case.

As with many other situations in life, our beliefs determine what happens to us. According to Noller at the University of Queensland, love 'can be strongly affected by the beliefs about love that are present in the culture...Not only do you need to have a concept of love before it happens to you, but the more you think about love, the more likely you are to fall in love (Tesser & Paulhus, 1976).


From "Introduction to Social Psychology' 4th edition, by Vaughn and Hogg

Sammy, I like to think that we can all be the ones to bring more love into the world. Not necessarily the kind we see in the movies with the big smoochy kisses (not that that isn't nice..lol) but the unconditional kind that brings about change in a positive way. I guess the real problem I see with this scientific information is that it does not acknowledge the concept of love that we as spiritually alive individuals do. The text talks about love in relation to companionship, marriage, arousal, etc. It briefly mentions agape "selfless (altruistic) love" which is defined as being unconditional caring, giving and forgiving. A duty to give to the loved one with no strings attached. But then it goes on to disprove altruism exists...and what is with describing love as a 'duty'?? you know me and the ongoing battle between science and spirituality Sammy lol. It has never made for a happy marriage in my mind.

What I do agree with is the importance placed on the role of words or more importantly, words as symbols. One thought I did have is just because scientists have not yet found words that are congruent with love in a culture does not mean they do not exist. It might mean that we have yet to find a way to interpret the language of the symbolism present.

The example of cultures who do not practice love include ones where arranged marriages take place instead of a western marriage based in love. Arranged marriages are thought of by scientists to be about supply and demand and accruing resources.

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Goth~Ink
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PostSubject: Re: Is it Love?   Sun May 17, 2009 9:40 am

Blue Water wrote:
It's not dumb at all, I would feel the same. Far as I know all cultures show love. Name me a culture where women do not care for their children, where the sick are not looked after, or where relatives are not honoured.

Um, sorry to say Blue there are plenty of societies who do not honour relatives or look after the sick. Look at the nursing homes full of deserted elderly people...or the Romanian children affected by AIDS who are spurned by their families and left in orphanages or hospices to die. How about the Saudi Arabian men who still treat women like second-class citizens and won't even allow them to show their faces? Remember that story from a few years back of the Muslim men beating their daughters back into a burning school building to their death because they didn't have their veils over their faces in public? There was even a story recently about a growing market of women in India who carry children for Westerners who cannot have children solely to sell them to the couple...sure the Western couple might be motivated by love but the Indian women are doing it to earn money and support themselves. Sadly the ideas you mentioned no longer exist universally. disappointing

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TheGreatWhiteBuffalo
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PostSubject: Re: Is it Love?   Sun May 17, 2009 11:57 pm

Imagine a woman beaten and battered, she a nurse would battle cancer back in the late 60's in the early 70's she dies but before her death she prays and there is a knock on the door a little boy is selling hoagies. This smart looking young man is dressed in his cub scouting uniform and during the transaction the woman reveals her prayer request to meet the person that would be the husband to her daughter. The daughter playing with little cars on the living room floor refuses to come to the door, it was clear to see that she had a problem with a nasal discharge and the mother insisted that it was just a phase she would eventually grow out of, I was assured that this girl would not hurt me even though she would not follow her mothers instructions. The young man took the order doing his job and later delivered the Hoagies so during the course of two interactions all of this information was revealed. Just before the passing of the abused mother. Later on in life the daughter and the scout would end up getting married and having two children together then the father would be greatly abused by this woman who would not admit to any wrong doing until confronted in such a way that she could not refute the facts and had to reveal the truth.

How many times their paths have crossed. My mother had a friend that would watch us (my sister and I) when my mother was working. My mother tried to work as a nurse full time and different people would watch us diffeerent days of the week. So prior to or on the odd days a friend of my mother would watch guess who? (The girl with the runny nose.) My mothers friend had three children all boys, the girl would assist the oldest son on boy scout projects and he would do very well in scouts.
Later during High School we would be in the same home room. I would watch everyone so I would notice the dedication and focus of this young person who came from a different system of education. The Catholic school system only taught children up to the eighth grade in our community so when you reach eighth grade the only path to higher education was through the public school system. In the final three years of education we would all converge taking classes in the senior high school and for three years we were in the same home room together but there was no magnetic attraction created until three years after high school and she piqued my interest and the interest of others who began to take notice to an interesting person. Eventually we would become a team a pair and that team would be broken by misguided influences in her life.
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